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inspiration » B - Series » 02 - A Song of Ice and Fire » Great Houses
 
     
 
 
Author Topic: Great Houses
Patchface
Fist of Thunder
LVL: 17
posted 06 October 2004 03:46 AM      $post_id   Email Patchface   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
Hiya, all !
Care to comment on the following ?

We have seen the 'decline' of five of the Great Houses in Westeros. House Stark is all but annihilated, Arryn is gone completely. Tully exists in name and has only Riverrun left, but with Edmure as the Frey's guest, how long will the Blackfish remain there (I bet he's going to end up at the Wall with Edmure dead, but that's just my wishful thinking...) ?
Barratheon is out of the picture for now (Stannis on the Wall and Gendry...well, being Gendry...) and I think the Lannisters are soon to follow. Cersei could not possibly keep control of the Iron Throne alone, though Varys and Jaime may help a lot in that respect. Also, I do not see Kevan stepping up as a new Tywin - I think his grief will still be great and he has always stood in his brother's shadow. Still, maybe he'll surprise us. Or maybe Tyrek will return ? Anyway, with Tywin's death the Lannister's future seems shaky...

So, what's in store for the Tyrells and the Martells ? Will they follow the same pattern and loose at least their patriarchs/matriarchs, possibly dumping them into chaos ? I think that the Tyrells will be a possible candidate for this scenario, much more so than the Martells, but it's just a gut feeling. I don't see the Queen of Thorns or Doran Martell likely to survive for long, leaving the field open for new blood.
I am also curious to see how Garlan (sp?) Tyrell - Loras' older brother and quite a decent fellow as far as we know - will handle things when (if ?) he comes to power. Which I think he will.

Sheesh, lots of text, but as I've stated often before, I'm really a political incompetent, so this is things as I see them for now.

Thoughts, anyone ?


Edit : $#@%! I actually misspelled Jaime !

edited by Patchface on October 6th, 2004


People overgeneralize too often


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Ishamael
Throne of Decay
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posted 06 October 2004 06:04 PM      $post_id   Author's Homepage   Email Ishamael   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
I don't know about Arryn really being 'gone' as it were, sure with littlefinger in charge - their motivations are suspect. But do consider they're basically unblooded having stayed out of the war for so long, so there's a lot of strength there waiting to be tested.

As for the Tyrell's, they basically stand unopposed in terms of military might, as the other houses are fragmented and preoccupied. It seems right now the Tyrell's would be prudent to support the Lannisters still, as it gives them the best chance of holding the throne with a minimum of bloodshed.

The Martells are really the wildcard. With no justice for Elia and Doran killed by her murdered, no doubt they're seething. And don't forget they have Myrcella - who in their laws is the rightful heir to the throne. I expect AFFC to see the Martell's march north, and the Tyrell's happily meeting them - annihilating each other in a massive war and leaving Westeros ripe for Dany's conquest.

Of course, it could go entirely differently, but that's how I see it for now.

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Patchface
Fist of Thunder
LVL: 17
posted 07 October 2004 03:03 AM      $post_id   Email Patchface   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
Ishy,

I couldn't agree more with your views on the Martells...The whole point of my post was sort of to see if you all could agree that GRRM has set up five major Houses for a fall already and will continue to do so. And indeed with a possible arrival of Dany in the back of his/our mind(s).

Of course the Vale is still strong and LF is neither incompetent nor foolish enough not to *try* to rally his bannermen, but still, are all of them so gullible as to believe his wife's death in the way he'd describe it. But whether or not he pulls it off, the Arryns (as a House) are all but gone.
Will be interesting to see how LF handles his Lords and Ladies and not become too befuddled by his feelings for Sansa.

Patch







People overgeneralize too often


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Demandred
Cerebrate
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posted 21 October 2004 04:31 AM      $post_id   Author's Homepage   Email Demandred   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
It's late, I may ramble a bit here.

Well, the story as a whole is certainly one of chaos and collapse. With regard to the Arryn heir, it may be interesting to see what kind of good influence Petyr and/or Sansa could have on him. I don't think Lannister should be written off yet, either -- quite the opposite in fact, really, but I'm getting to that.

If there is a big Martell-Tyrell clash, and then Dany showed up, I think it would be terribly ironic that everyone (assuming they don't support Dany, which they wouldn't) would almost certainly have to rally back behind the Lannisters. Despite Tywin's death, they're still in control and intact, and still as rich as ever. Kevan may be no Tywin, but he's been Tywin's right hand for ages, and he's far from incompetent.

Stannis won't ever join that group, though -- he'd probably support Dany first. If he stays occupied at the Wall, though, it might not become a practical choice for him -- although as a King, he'll probably still be relatively well informed as events develop, and who knows what his sense of responsibility might drive him to...

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Muad'Dib
Voice of Peace
LVL: 22

posted 21 October 2004 05:23 PM      $post_id   Email Muad'Dib   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
maybe keven will join dany. what more does he have to lose. Yea he go home for a while, but when dany emerges she'll be a noble threat. I could see the imp turning refuge as well. that would make great head lines. that would be a great asset to her as well. i was so relieved when dany didn't sell the dragons, i'm rooting for the last of the dragon blood. also, i need to see ned revenged.

i know this is all wishful thinking... i hope and maybe...

well sorry back on topic. thats what it seems to me that all the houses are either already in the pit or headed that way. what more can be done. truly this is a world being destroyed and made a new.


"...fear is the mind killer, i will face my fear and let it pass through me, and when it is gone, there will be nothing, but i will remain..." (Maud'Dib)


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Demandred
Cerebrate
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posted 22 October 2004 12:34 AM      $post_id   Author's Homepage   Email Demandred   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
quote ::

[originally posted by Muad'Dib]:
truly this is a world being destroyed and made a new.

I'll certainly agree to that! Maybe this post belongs a bit more in the 'Ultimate Goal' thread, but that seems to me to be what the books are all about. Everything is being progressively torn down, and wherever new order arises it too is then torn down in turn. And it's all accelerating. Dorne would certainly fit the pattern, and the Boltons and Greyjoys will surely have their defeats soon enough, as well.

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Patchface
Fist of Thunder
LVL: 17
posted 26 October 2004 03:59 AM      $post_id   Email Patchface   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
Dem,

How exactly would Dorne fit this pattern ? If there's one House I see 'joining' - well, at least not openly opposing - Dany, it's Dorne. First of all because Dorne is one of Dany's most likely starting points of her Westerosi campaign (if it ever happens, which I kinda' doubt) and she'll be sure to get the necessary intelligence on Dornish views considering her arrival. Whether or not the Dornish(wo)men greet her arrival, they've always been so seperated and independent of the other Houses they'll have to deal with her alone - meaning they'll bend or break. Even apart from the fact they've been Targaryen supporters ever since, they'll see too much opportunity - I'd think - to pass up declaring for Dany.

So, Ishy, I do not *feel* a massive war between the Tyrells and Martells is about to happen *yet*, though it might surely happen. The Martells strike me as bloody stubborn but opportunistic as well, but not stupid enough to stray from their biggest tactical advantage, which is their homelands (*all* of it, not just their norhtern territories).

As for the Lannisters, your points are well taken, Ishy, but I will reiterate that Kevan is not Tywin. He strikes me as much less self-confident or bold, certainly not the player of the GoT Tywin was. Though, yes, he learned at the hands of the master, so that'll count for something.
But still, he's lost his beloved brother, Lancel and Tyrek are 'gone' (I don't consider these to be spoilers anymore, are they ?) and he has to lead his House all of a sudden. I do not think he'll be up to it as he'll inevitably try to emulate Tywin's style. And this he'll be able to pull off only with full concentration and no distractions. Besides, Cersei and Jaime are not *his* children and I think he'll have a hard time keeping them in line - a leverage Tywin had naturally.


Lost in my own thoughts a bit there, but I hope my points are clear enough

Salutations,

Patch





People overgeneralize too often


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Demandred
Cerebrate
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posted 30 October 2004 01:23 AM      $post_id   Author's Homepage   Email Demandred   Send New Private Message    Reply With Quote 
Patch,

I think Dorne can fit the pattern of destruction perfectly. It's been like a rock, practically unaffected by all the turmoil in the rest of the kingdoms (until the death of the prince, at least). But now it can come right into the picture, well before Danaerys appears on the scene. If they declare for Myrcella, it means another war, which gives only too much opportunity for them to be ruined, along with the Tyrells, as mentioned. In fact, I wouldn't be too shocked to see them smash the Tyrells, only to be felled themselves by treachery, sorcery, or Littlefinger.

I don't think it fits GRRM's style for Dorne to survive unscathed. They're not really going to have contact with the Others, nor the Ironmen, and I don't believe we've heard of red priests down there, have we? That would seem to leave the Lannister/Tyrell group, or Daenerys, as the instrument for their downfall -- and we've got a clear reason for conflict with the former, while as you point out there's not necessarily much reason to think they'd oppose the latter.

Of course, there's always Arya to consider -- she might topple a House on her return. But I don't really think that'll be the Martells.

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